Curse

Morte66 · Mar 06, 2011, 03:01 PM // 15:01

I used to run Minions + heal/prot monks, then moved to Sabway, then to Spiritway, all with regular tweaking. I've been chewing away at my warrior's heroes for the last week (didn't know the update was coming) whilst capping my last 200 elite skills in HM -- making lots of visits to the same areas helps with comparisons. Since the 7 hero change I've tried a whole bunch of stuff and ended up with a combination that I think basically works but could perhaps be bettered. In particular, with the phsyical buffs I've got I wonder whether I could use a second frontliner (e.g. a Dervish) to make the most of them.

This is where I'm at, the first group that didn't make me think "XYZ is not working":

Self: Adrenal Dragon Slasher OQASEZKTLOnima7gGWXF8Vie
Been running this forever, I tried other stuff and kept coming back to it. I like the quick starting adrenaline chain that keeps on giving, the knockdown to interrupt that meteor storm, and the aggro-attraction plus squishy-protection from SY. The only other bar I run willingly is Enduring Axe when I need Wild Blow for Shiro. But with all the damage buffs I've got now I'm wondering whether I should use more AoE to spread them around.

1. SoS/Resto with Splinter Weapon OACjEyiM5MlzrJGra6NZmSzJHA
Carried over from Spiritway, as I always loved the bar compression. All the Channeling and Resto spells from my "must have" list just fit. It lacks pressure healing. It's a little awkward in that I want the spirits at the front and I want the healer at the back.

2. Minion Bomber with Aegis: OANFQTxW2xnkcQVAawWIegiQABaE
I like Dark Bond because it removed the "Whispers does most of the dying thanks to his superior rune and 3 second spells" problem I used to get. The usual bomber prots are elsewhere, but it gives me a second copy of Aegis -- with enchanting and HSR mods that's usually up. Since he's /Mo, a hard res.

3. SoGM DPS/Debuffer: OAOj0MgMJPO7vZ0ezd2ycOT0I
Standard stuff. I especially like Disenchantment for it's obliteration of strong prots (Vow of Silence, Mark of Protection), and Dissonance for shutting down the nuker I cared about enough to call first. The damage is nice too.

When it's hard enough to need due care, I flag those three as a front line and pull enemies into their range, then switch to melee. The remaining four go behind them:

4. ER Orders: OgRDQcOML1Ct8GD9kYIdSrA
Straight off wiki. All heroes have spears. Blood Ritual helps the mesmer and smiter, whose energy management works on average but is not what you'd call "smooth", and it's nice in an emergency. I don't trust ER on a protter because the AI sometimes just won't cast ER, but I can live with a reduction in kill speed if Orders shuts down for a tea break.

5. Panic shutdown/punish: OQNDApwTO0AXwNVDM6W+EB0I
This is my broad anti-caster mitigation. I think PI would be a better elite if the AI spammed it, but it doesn't so I have Panic. Energy management is touch and go depending on what Guilt/Drain hit.

6. SoLS/WoH Heal & Prot: OANDYZzfOVVNiHxoN9DI1j7K
I went for monk rather than rit so I can have Aegis and hex removal (the SoS has MBAS for conditions). Also the heals are stronger. Dwayna's Sorrow on the minions helps with pressure healing.

7: Smite and Curse Swing Voter: OANDYYzuOV15BExlQ9zDlBLB (varies a lot)
This started because I wanted Strength of Honor and I wanted Mark of Pain. Primary monks seem to lack the energy to be good smiters so I went necro. He ended up as a Swiss Army Knife, this is where I do most of my tweaking to suit the area. SoH is disabled and microed on me. The elite can change to: Signet of Judgement vs Undead (not Ray since it's scattering AoE), Empathic Removal for heavy condition + hex areas (e.g. the plants in Chokin), Reaper's Mark to power hefty non-elites. Non-elites can be Smite Condition/Hex, Scourge Healing, Spear of Light, Castigation Signet, Rigor Mortis, Rend Enchantments, Enfeebling Blood, Reckless Haste...

When there weren't enough corpses I dropped the MM, changed the SoGM Rit to ST protter (which needs Spawning power), and ran the SoGM build on a ranger with 11 expertise + 6 channeling + Spirit Siphon in place of Boon of Creation. It worked well in Ashashdim.

So, overall... I've got Orders and Smites and Curses to boost my warrior, prots and panic and minions/spirits for mitigation, extra damage from spirits and the mesmer and spears hitting Barbs/MoP. It covers enough bases to handle any mob I normally meet (it's not meant for Varesh/Shiro/Rotscale). I've got 3 hard res, which I like for missions with no shrines. I've got 4 direct heals split over 2 characters, which is lovely when you catch an un-protted spike.

It seems very solid, only one mob gave me a hard time (wiped despite being careful) and I think that was meant to be fought in Junundu worms. It is perhaps too solid -- maybe I could get more damage. I didn't miss SY when it was replaced with Signet of Capture, whereas I leaned on it pretty hard in the H/H days.

I think this setup is working in that it's doing what it set out to do: supports a player warrior as lone frontliner against a wide variety of opposition. However, I'm wondering whether I should be setting out to do something else, and looking at Dervish/Paragon heroes. Alas I have no clue about either profession. So I'd be grateful for informed opinions.

Any comments about the specifics, rather the than the overall shape of the team, would be welcome too.

loopysnoopy · Mar 06, 2011, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Two great options for Orders one is Dwayna orders spammer or use a Nec Blood washer/orders

http://www.gwpvx.com/Special:PvXDecode?title=Special%3APvXDecode&wpBuil d=OgSlwqpo6tOE68eNEQV279d%2BSf5%2B&wpName=Dervish+ Orders&Go=Submit+Query
Sup in Mysticism Minor in the rest

http://www.gwpvx.com/Special:PvXDecode?title=Special%3APvXDecode&wpBuil d=OAlkYgEsZdmzP2QAVHaV1BRGGHD&wpName=Meh+a+flesh+w ound&Go=Submit+Query
Minor in Soul Sup in Blood

But that's just what I tend to favour as er orders is a tad iffy other wise I like the setup will post more of a reaction when I get on Guild wars and test them.

Hells Fury · Mar 06, 2011, 04:55 PM // 16:55

1. I would drop painfull bond heroes aren't good with it. Instead put Kaolai.
3. You could run him BUT he will often run out of energy (even with ER casting br). Also w/o spirit summon he can't drag them and creating them in every battle is slow. You could speed up things with Soul Twisting but i'd rather use something else.
4. Drop grasping earth , put ward against foes, ER can afford it
6. No, go N/rt heal. You can put prot spirit on mm.
7. Drop SS. It just isn't worth it. Energy,dmg, recharge and the speed at which things die make SS look like crap. Instead take Icy Veins. Drop balthazars aura for Judges Insight. It's good as cover enchant, armor penetration and vs undeads. (dunno of you noticed but attribs are messed in last one , 12 healing prayers)

Daesu · Mar 06, 2011, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Looks like a decent build, but it has more heals than needed. I also don't like your panic bar. Here is what I use for my warrior (player bar shown below

):

I am still experimenting and trying to optimize it. Ignore the Asuran Scan on the player bar, I have not updated my player bar template yet.

loopysnoopy · Mar 06, 2011, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Hello again

Did a test of all your builds the results was a bit surprising.

Test area: ToA

Killed 100 foes this included WiK enemies with your original build went okay but seemed a bit hit and miss in certain areas ie hex and energy.

So I reconfigured some not all to a build which was more energy friendly and less clunky.

Test area: ToA

Killed 100 foes this included WiK enemies with the new improved bars went a lot better not as clunky. Still room for improvement.

Add SoH on the dervish too

Oh and i only have one res due to the fact its PVE (HM) or should we call it easy mode now with the 7 h thing

Morte66 · Mar 06, 2011, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Darkblight

1. I would drop painfull bond heroes aren't good with it. Instead put Kaolai.

My feeling is that with 8 damage spirits they don't need to be all that good at it, but I'll certainly give that a whirl.

Quote:

3. You could run him BUT he will often run out of energy (even with ER casting br). Also w/o spirit summon he can't drag them and creating them in every battle is slow. You could speed up things with Soul Twisting but i'd rather use something else.

His energy management is Ok (he can regenerate enough in the time it takes the skills to recharge). The problem is having enough energy to cast the bar in the first place. It works with Boon of Creation up and the +15e staff (insightful staff head) that I used to use or the +5e spear and +12e focus I use now.

Quote:

4. Drop grasping earth , put ward against foes, ER can afford it

Sounds good, should have thought of it myself...

Quote:

6. No, go N/rt heal.

Why?

I use /Mo for Aegis (2 copies means it's mostly up), Dwayna's Sorrow (passive healing), and to get more healing in less time than MBaS + SL.

N/Rt offers defensive weapon spells (that never wowed me), more condition removal, and better passive healing.

Having compared the two, I've preferred /Mo in actual use. But maybe there's some hidden factor I'm not thinking of. Why do you prefer the Rit?

Quote:

7. Drop SS. It just isn't worth it. Energy,dmg, recharge and the speed at which things die make SS look like crap. Instead take Icy Veins.

I must admit SS was a "for want of anything better", with a side order of "gets better against tougher mobs (who take longer to die so its long duration pays off)". I will certainly give Icy Veins a spin and see what I think.

Quote:

Drop balthazars aura for Judges Insight. It's good as cover enchant, armor penetration and vs undeads.

But surely the holy damage will stop it triggering orders, Barbs, and Mark of Pain which need physical damage.

Thanks for the reply, much to chew on.

IronSheik · Mar 06, 2011, 06:23 PM // 18:23

As far to loopy snoopy build.

The orders dervish shouldn't try to be a meleeer too, make it a melee or a orders, not both.

Exactly what is the necro using blood ritual on? Remove that, add mark of pain.

Add judgement insight (name? 20% penetration) to the SoH

It seems youd be killing too fast and moving a lot to really need a communing SS, add another AoE melee imo.

Nightmare wep seems redundant

Not sure if thats heal area or heal other, anyways, remove it

Remove wielder's boon as well, add life or recovery

EDIT: Res chant is no good in PvE in any regard, replace any instance with either no res, or flesh/DP signet

Hells Fury · Mar 06, 2011, 06:38 PM // 18:38

N/rt more pure heal and less energy problem than monk version. He also can't benefit divine favor.

Disregard what i said about judges insight. Forgot about order of pain.

Morte66 · Mar 06, 2011, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Looks like a decent build, but it has more heals than needed. I also don't like your panic bar. Here is what I use for my warrior (player bar shown below

):

Thanks. I will play around with that, but first a few questions...

- How in heck do you get the AI to play a ST rit with 5 spirits? It always falls to pieces for me. I do quite nicely with shelter-union-disp if I precast them before the fight and let him renew them, and I don't mind microing that if it's before a hard fight rather than during it. But I've had no joy with more than 3 spirits.

- What is the 7th skill on the mesmer bar?

- On the bomber/curse necro, is the AI casting MoP and Shadow of Fear roughly when you want? I find that a hero with Death Nova will try to spam it to the exclusion of all else if he possibly can. Long ago I resigned myself to manually casting Masochism, AotL, and Animate Minions after a fight and Prot Spirit before it (yet he somehow manages Aegis OK).

Otherwise, the only icon I recognise from your paragon bar is Signet Of Return. I guess I'll have to go read about Paragons.

I'm deeply suspicious of ER protters because mine sometimes won't cast ER, so he drops to zero energy and I'm screwed. But maybe it's a peculiarity of my bar, I'll try yours out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

EDIT: Res chant is no good in PvE in any regard, replace any instance with either no res, or flesh/DP signet

I really like res chant.

IMHO its disadvantage (short range) matters less than the disadvantage on FoMF (relative health loss to the party).

The disadvantage on DPS is strong, and the equally strong advantage only exists if you have substantial points in resto. But my channeling/resto rit hasn't got room for it. Also I'm a little leery about putting a primary healer under a death pact, though I suppose I could always go make tea...

Quote:

Originally Posted by loopysnoopy

Did a test of all your builds the results was a bit surprising.

Firstly, I never expected anybody to actually go out and test stuff in game. Man, thanks for your time, I appreciate it.

Secondly, the build you posted sees like a plausible way to pack that many functions into that many slots, but it's kind of alien to the way I've played and built things before. So I'll have to spend some time before I know what I think of it.

Daesu · Mar 06, 2011, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morte66

Thanks. I will play around with that, but first a few questions...

- How in heck do you get the AI to play a ST rit with 5 spirits? It always falls to pieces for me. I do quite nicely with shelter-union-disp if I precast them before the fight and let him renew them, and I don't mind microing that if it's before a hard fight rather than during it. But I've had no joy with more than 3 spirits.

Notice that I am using offensive communing spirits with ST instead. You can switch ST to SoGM if you prefer, for more damage but losing the recharge and energy from ST. The choice of which is better, probably depends on the situation.

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- What is the 7th skill on the mesmer bar?

Spiritual Pain. The damage is ok, given the short recharge, and in situations where hostile minions/spirits are present it can be useful. Having said that, it is not crucial to the bar so feel free to swap that with your favorite skill if you prefer.

Quote:

- On the bomber/curse necro, is the AI casting MoP and Shadow of Fear roughly when you want? I find that a hero with Death Nova will try to spam it to the exclusion of all else if he possibly can. Long ago I resigned myself to manually casting Masochism, AotL, and Animate Minions after a fight and Prot Spirit before it (yet he somehow manages Aegis OK).

For MoP, you can disable it and micro for better targeting. But if you are extremely lazy, you can wait for the AI to cast it well by chance.

For Shadow of Fear, I agree with you and I dont really like it on that bar. I will probably remove it, move all the curses skills from the Orders necro to the MM and add OOP and Foul Feast to the orders necro.

Quote:

Otherwise, the only icon I recognise from your paragon bar is Signet Of Return. I guess I'll have to go read about Paragons.

His bar is listed here: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Pv...Submit+Que ry

His anthems synergize with the spirits as well as with my warrior's skills and his paragon's skills. Also Fallback is nice when vanquishing, and also healing party members and minions when running around.

Quote:

I'm deeply suspicious of ER protters because mine sometimes won't cast ER, so he drops to zero energy and I'm screwed. But maybe it's a peculiarity of my bar, I'll try yours out.

I agree that the AI doesn't always cast ER upon recharge, but I notice that whenever his energy gets low without ER on, he usually casts ER when he can.

Make sure to set him to passive and flag him behind so he wouldn't be targeted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

EDIT: Res chant is no good in PvE in any regard, replace any instance with either no res, or flesh/DP signet

It depends on the situation again. I wouldn't use DPS in a non-EOTN mission or in an area where your party doesn't have res shrine support, since DPS encourages party demise but saves you death penalty. In a mission, if your party dies, you lose. But DPS is great when vanquishing because it saves you death penalty and your party can res together at a shrine if you encounter a really tough mob. I usually replace all my FomF with DPS when vanquishing and swap them back when in missions.

loopysnoopy · Mar 07, 2011, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

As far to loopy snoopy build.

The orders dervish shouldn't try to be a meleeer too, make it a melee or a orders, not both.

Exactly what is the necro using blood ritual on? Remove that, add mark of pain.

Add judgement insight (name? 20% penetration) to the SoH

Nightmare wep seems redundant

Not sure if thats heal area or heal other, anyways, remove it

Remove wielder's boon as well, add life or recovery

EDIT: Res chant is no good in PvE in any regard, replace any instance with either no res, or flesh/DP signet

BR is for when the heroes want to be idiots ie idiot proof

MoP cause's scatter in (HM) not too good I worked off the idea in (HM
)
Nightmare Weap is great for a re-bounce once splinters gone.

Dervish is fine with what he is doing he keeps melee and minions alive with been at the front.

Judge's insight great and all but I my self am aware of its capability but for this instance not needed.

Heal other is fine for a spot here and there on a necro there is no problem with energy skills of 10.

Res chant is great for every where apart from dungeons

Wielder's boon great for the other weapon skills

All in all it lets me move on fast quick clean and no problems but there are many other ways to run heroes BUT a warrior is more effective with buffs on him to hack and slash quick

Morte66 · Mar 07, 2011, 11:22 AM // 11:22

I've done a bit more experimenting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

For MoP, you can disable it and micro for better targeting. But if you are extremely lazy, you can wait for the AI to cast it well by chance.

When this is all settled, I imagine I'll map 3 or 4 hotkeys for "have hero 5 use skill 4 on the party target" and whatnot and always load the same heros/skills into the relevant slots. I might disable Rigor Mortis and Mark of Pain which have fairly long recharges so they only get cast when I choose.

[Speaking of MoP, I've been having a go at the 100b/MoP bomb thing. I think 100b is decidedly mediocre without MoP, and to become the elite of choice it needs MoP recharged by AP to fire often enough. But I can't see a hero running AP, unless I disable/hotkey that too. Plus the flagging/pre-protting required to ball up foes, without some hero/minion bridging aggro and un-balling them, is so painstaking that it's often quicker to just attack and get less AoE.]

Quote:

Also Fallback is nice when vanquishing, and also healing party members and minions when running around.

I lose lots of minions on long runs, if I want to arrive intact I to pause to manually cast Blood Of The Master. So I do like the look of automatically healing minions on the move.

It's not on your bar, but I do also find Wild Throw quite alluring since blocking can be the bane of my life.

Quote:

I agree that the AI doesn't always cast ER upon recharge, but I notice that whenever his energy gets low without ER on, he usually casts ER when he can.

My problem was that sometimes he'd get down to about 30e and ER would be unused in the fight so far, and then he'd cast 3 10e prots instead of ER. This specifically happened at the start of fights. It's as if I had too many spammable prots that the AI likes using at the start of a fight, and he could happily go through 120 of his available 98e before thinking about energy management.

With a slightly more rounded bar, ER E/Mo is working a lot better for me. I'd be happy to consider ER prot or prot/smite now.

Daesu · Mar 07, 2011, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morte66

[Speaking of MoP, I've been having a go at the 100b/MoP bomb thing. I think 100b is decidedly mediocre without MoP, and to become the elite of choice it needs MoP recharged by AP to fire often enough. But I can't see a hero running AP, unless I disable/hotkey that too. Plus the flagging/pre-protting required to ball up foes, without some hero/minion bridging aggro and un-balling them, is so painstaking that it's often quicker to just attack and get less AoE.]

Because MoP is such an excellent damage source when cast right, I still carry it and micro it. As for replacing 100b, it is up to you to bring your own warrior build. I believe the team would still work for most other warrior builds.

Quote:

I lose lots of minions on long runs, if I want to arrive intact I to pause to manually cast Blood Of The Master. So I do like the look of automatically healing minions on the move.

I don't find that to be the case for me in most GW:EN vq, but it maybe area dependent. With a Aotl MM, I almost always have some minions (often 11 minions) with me and I don't like the MM casting BotM during combat, saccing, and healing the minions. Besides with 7 heroes, you also have a bunch of spirits along with a good tank (you) to hold aggro before they reach your squishies, so I am still not convinced that BotM is necessary, maybe if you micro BoTM for areas that mobs are far away in between. But proper flagging could solve that also, if you are worried about your squishies getting hurt.

Quote:

It's not on your bar, but I do also find Wild Throw quite alluring since blocking can be the bane of my life.

That depends on your warrior's build. Free feel to tweak the heroes to synergize better with your own warrior's build.

Quote:

My problem was that sometimes he'd get down to about 30e and ER would be unused in the fight so far, and then he'd cast 3 10e prots instead of ER. This specifically happened at the start of fights. It's as if I had too many spammable prots that the AI likes using at the start of a fight, and he could happily go through 120 of his available 98e before thinking about energy management.

With a slightly more rounded bar, ER E/Mo is working a lot better for me. I'd be happy to consider ER prot or prot/smite now.

If you have found a better ER build, feel free to share.

slipVaYnE · Mar 07, 2011, 05:00 PM // 17:00

On my warrior I've been running with:

Ineptitude
Panic
SS(with a little prot)
Jagged Bones Bomber(with a little prot)
Icy Veins Resto
SoS/Resto
ST Communing*

*Basically the SoGM bar with ST instead...he sucks so bad at energy, and half the bar is almost always on recharge, so I swapped to ST. It does less damage, but the spirits are always up, and I like that better. This is also my swing slot, and I change it out area depending.

The build basically allows me to faceplant into nearly any area, any mob, with no regard for extra patrols coming in, and I can happily smash things to death with little to no risk to my party.

Morte66 · Mar 07, 2011, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Because MoP is such an excellent damage source when cast right, I still carry it and micro it. As for replacing 100b, it is up to you to bring your own warrior build. I believe the team would still work for most other warrior builds.

Agreed - I may have been unclear.

What I was trying to say is that I like MoP on any team with physicals, but I only think 100b/MoP is worth it if MoP is getting recharged by AP.

Quote:

If you have found a better ER build, feel free to share.

I've been unclear again -- I had a worse build, that put me off ER, and switching to your build made me like it again. Since then I've been trying out various similar builds, sometimes farming out Aegis and Prot Spirit to make room for spammables.

And now for the elephant in the room:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

but it has more heals than needed.

I thought you were so wrong, I didn't reply to that until I'd gathered evidence to prove it. But a few missions and a couple of vanquishes later it turns out that you were absolutely right. Damn.

Two strong direct heals (be they monk or rit) and some party heal is fine, with all the mitigation from the ER protter + panic mesmer + minions. AFAICT the extra healing I had before was going onto minions.

Thanks for making me do that...

In other news, I tried a Arcane Zeal orders/curses dervish and it sucked. She didn't maintain any enchantments except Awaken the Blood, never had more than 5 energy when I glanced during a fight, and never cast a curse that I saw.

I'll try a necro next, and see how that compares to ER for orders(/curses) -- I figure the energy can't be as good but it might be enough, and a necro could be runed to the eyeballs.

Daesu · Mar 08, 2011, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morte66

Thanks for making me do that...

You are welcome!

Morte66 · Mar 08, 2011, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morte66

I'll try a necro next, and see how that compares to ER for orders(/curses) -- I figure the energy can't be as good but it might be enough, and a necro could be runed to the eyeballs.

I'm sure that this is not the last word in orders/curse necros, but it worked enough to prove the concept. He had too much energy, SOLS plus the elite covered his sacrificing, and he cast all his spells.

So at the moment general shape of the team is looking like:

1. My warrior, going for more AoE than Dragon Slash, probably something like enduring axe/scythe. EBSoH and Wild Blow very welcome.
2. Another physical to leverage the buffs. Dervish if I can get an AI friendly build dealing physical damage for SoH, else ranger/paragon.
3. SoS/resto rit.
4. Minion Bomber with some less spammy prots.
5. SoGM dps/debuffer rit.
6. Panic or Ineptitude mesmer to suit the area.
7. Necro running orders and curses.
8. ER prot/smite, maintaining Strength of Honor on me and the dervish.

I'll work on the details of that and see how I get on.

Morte66 · Mar 11, 2011, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morte66

So at the moment general shape of the team is looking like:

1. My warrior, going for more AoE than Dragon Slash, probably something like enduring axe/scythe. EBSoH and Wild Blow very welcome.
2. Another physical to leverage the buffs. Dervish if I can get an AI friendly build dealing physical damage for SoH, else ranger/paragon.
3. SoS/resto rit.
4. Minion Bomber with some less spammy prots.
5. SoGM dps/debuffer rit.
6. Panic or Ineptitude mesmer to suit the area.
7. Necro running orders and curses.
8. ER prot/smite, maintaining Strength of Honor on me and the dervish.

I'll work on the details of that and see how I get on.

So... I've tried out some more stuff. I think I ran one corner of Morosotov trail about 15 times.

The Player

I tried Dragon Slash vs Enduring Axe vs Enduring Scythe on my warrior. I think that:
- The difference is not that big.
- Warrior's Endurance is very nice for powering Ebon Standard of Honor.
- They can all maintain SY but dslash is the most natural to get SY up early, before the first big nuke comes your way.
- Enduring Axe is better than Enduring Scythe against single tough targets, because of dismember and higher basic attack speed. Scythe is better vs riff raff.
- Enduring Whatever cries out for Drunken Master + booze. I kind of hate dealing with inventory and money.

At the end of the day I think I'll run... ...all of them, according to my mood at the time.

The Second Physical

I tried ranger, paragon and dervish.

The ranger was better than the paragon, though this may be because I have no clue about paragons.

The dervish with Strength of Honor (which only buffs melee) did more damage than either but took longer to get started. I tried Vow of Strength and Onlsaught for dervish elites (not many physical damage options). I thought Onslaught was better in a fight but Melonni wouldn't use it until she got into melee range, which wastes the IMS.

So I gave the dervish Death's Charge, and it all clicked very nicely. Much less downtime, less running around without IMS, more time doing damage.

The Communing Rit

I tried ST vs SoGM on the communing rit. I think SoGM is better if you take the time to set it up and ST is better if you don't. I'm cool with that -- when it's difficult I'll take the time, when it's easy I can live with 4 of 5 spirits being up.

Per IronSheik's comment (SoGM too slow if you're doing kill and move), I also tried a second derv and a paragon instead of the SoGM. ISTM the SoGM is more powerful and the physical is less waiting. I expect I'll start using a paragon with "Fall Back!" for easier stuff, once I get a handle on the were the line is.

The Bloody Mesmer's Bloody Energy

I gave up on making the Panic mesmer work with either Wastrel's. I run both when I play a panic mesmer, and energy is the bane of my life. The hero has no chance. So it's Panic, Mistrust, Empathy, Cry of Frustration, Leech Signet, Power Drain, Channeling, Res Chant.

The Order's Necro's Blood (is Bleeding)

I went with a Cultist's Fervor orders necro instead of Ether Renewal E/N so he could have 16 points in blood magic. I wanted to use Awaken the Blood for even more, but the sacrifice got too brutal. I put some life steal on instead, and he's not a cause of hair loss anymore. Cultist's Fervour, Order of Pain, Dark Fury, Unholy Feast, Blood Bond or Rigor Mortis, Barbs, Mark of Pain, Foul Feast.

And Finally

I feel like I've reached a plateau now. It's much better than the build I had at the top of the thread, and I have trouble telling a difference when I try a possible improvement. I'm sure there'll be more detail tweaking -- I haven't posted exact builds since only the basic shape is "done". For now, I'll get on with playing it... ...and start thinking about my necro.

So it remains to say: thanks very much everyone for all your help and suggestions.

loopysnoopy · Mar 11, 2011, 01:15 AM // 01:15

I found that the other day when messing around with gwen that two elites fits nicely and runs well with physicals is Energy Surge and Ineptitude with a shut down for both physical and caster. Your party should be killing more foes with less trouble only a suggestion can't post exact builds due to been at work